Jan 21, 2025 Government Oversight/Audit and Appointments Committee - This is Considered a Special Meeting

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MOUNTAIN. ALL THE WAY UP THERE.

I WAS LIKE METRO TV. ONE MINUTE PLEASE. I'M JUST HERE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS IF I NEED TO. ITS

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[Call to Order]

[Roll Call]

[1. ID 25-0014     Purpose of Government Oversight/Audit and Appointments Committee]

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THAT INCLUDES. I SHARE PARTS OF ALGONQUIN WITH REPRESENTATIVE HAWKINS OR COUNCILWOMAN HAWKINS, RATHER, PARK HILL, OLD LOUISVILLE, LIMERICK, MERIWETHER, SHELBY PARK, GERMANTOWN, PARIS TOWN POINT. AND TAYLOR BERRY. COUNCILMAN. REED. HELLO, I'M SCOTT REED, AND I COULD HAVE SWORN THAT COUNCILWOMAN PURVIS SAID THAT WE WERE ALL OLD, BUT THAT'S BESIDE THE POINT. SO I REPRESENT DISTRICT 16, AND THAT GOES FROM RIVER FIELDS ALL THE WAY UP TO PROSPECT. THAT INCLUDES 14 SUBURBAN CITIES. THAT ALSO INCLUDES THE AREA AROUND GREENSPRING, BARBER, MEAD, BARBER. MANOR, BROWNSBORO FARM IN THAT AREA AS WELL. SO WELCOME THE NEW PEOPLE TO THIS COMMITTEE AND WELCOME COUNCILWOMAN PURVIS, WHOM I'M CERTAIN WILL DO A FANTASTIC JOB. GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNCILMAN ANTHONY PIAGENTINI. I REPRESENT DISTRICT 19 ON MY WESTERN BORDER. THAT IS MOST OF THE SUBURBAN CITY OF MIDDLETOWN AND ALL OF THE VERY SMALL SUBURBAN CITY OF WOODLAND HILLS. IT TRACKS SHELBYVILLE ROAD GOING EAST. I HAVE THE NORTHERN SIDE OF SHELBYVILLE ROAD UNTIL YOU GET TO JUST SHORT OF THE COUNTY LINE, THE SHELBY COUNTY LINE. I FOLLOW THE COUNTY LINE ALONG SHELBY COUNTY AND OLDHAM COUNTY UP TO ABOUT LAGRANGE ROAD. COME BACK OVER TO THE GENE SNYDER AND THEN FOLLOW THE GENE SNYDER BACK DOWN TO MIDDLETOWN. SO I'VE GOT, OTHER THAN THE TWO SUBURBAN CITIES, MOSTLY LARGE RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENTS SUCH AS LAKE FOREST AND POLO FIELDS. THANK YOU AGAIN. I'M COUNCILWOMAN PURVIS, AND I REPRESENT DISTRICT FIVE, WHICH ENCOMPASSES CHICKASAW, SHAWNEE, PORTLAND AND RUSSELL. SO WITH THAT, SINCE WE'VE ALL BECOME A LITTLE FAMILIAR WITH EACH OTHER, THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY INFORMAL MEETING AND PROBABLY A SHORT MEETING. SO ANYTHING THAT YOU ALL WANT TO DISCUSS, AS FAR AS THE PURPOSE OF GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY, OVERSIGHT OR ANYTHING THAT YOU ALL HAVE ON YOUR MIND, ANY QUESTIONS YOU GUYS MAY HAVE FOR YOU ALL TO BE FRESHMEN AND TO BE ON SUCH A COMMITTEE? YOU'RE IN FOR A RIDE. SO WE'RE OPEN FOR ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MAY HAVE AND JUST SPEAK UP AND ASK ANYTHING THAT'S ON YOUR MIND. OH, AND BY THE WAY, WHILE WE'RE HERE, LET'S INTRODUCE TWO OF OUR WHAT SHOULD I CALL YOU ALL THE GROUPIES. GROUPIES? YEAH. IF YOU ALL WOULD COME TO THE PODIUM AND INTRODUCE YOURSELVES TO THE COMMITTEE AND YOUR PURPOSE. NUMBER ONE. MY NAME IS ALTHEA JACKSON. I AM THE DIRECTOR OF BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. YOU WILL SEE ME HERE EVERY MEETING. I COME OVER TO PRESENT THE NOMINEES THAT THE MAYOR HAS NOMINATED. I MY ROLE IN ALL OF THIS IS I ASSIST WITH RECRUITMENT. THEN I HAVE TO VET THEM. THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH AN APPLICATION PROCESS, I HAVE TO VET THEM. AND THEN I PRESENT THEM TO YOU. HI, I'M NICOLE PANG, I'M AN ASSISTANT COUNTY ATTORNEY AND I AM HERE. IF YOU HAVE ANY LEGAL QUESTIONS, I

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TIME TO REPORT OUT TO THE COMMITTEE. BUT JUST WANTED YOU ALL TO KNOW THIS IS GOING ON. IF YOU WANT MORE INFORMATION, I'M GLAD TO GIVE YOU THAT AND INVITE YOU TO ANY OF THE MONTHLY OPERATIONAL MEETINGS. I'VE ALSO ASKED THE OFFICE OF INTERNAL AUDIT TO LOOK INTO THE SYSTEM DEVELOPMENT CHARGE PROGRAM. SO MUCH, MUCH SMALLER AUDIT. BUT I JUST WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THAT'S GOING ON FOR THE FRESHMEN. I DO WANT TO BE REALLY, REALLY CLEAR ABOUT SOME OF THE UNIQUE ASPECTS OF THIS COMMITTEE. THIS IS, I DON'T KNOW, MY THIRD OR FOURTH TIME VICE CHAIRING THIS COMMITTEE. NUMBER ONE, IT'S THE ONLY COMMITTEE THAT CAN SWEAR IN PEOPLE BEFORE THEY TESTIFY. SO WHEREAS IN EVERY OTHER COMMITTEE THAT YOU HAVE HERE, PEOPLE CAN COME UP HERE AND LIE TO YOU ALL THE LIVE LONG DAY AND THERE'S NO LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS IF YOU IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE ACTUAL TRUTH IS ABOUT ANY ISSUE, YOU CAN HAVE THEM COME HERE, THEY CAN BE SWORN IN. AND IF THEY MISREPRESENT, IF THEY KNOWINGLY LIE, THEY'RE PERJURING THEMSELVES, RIGHT? AND THEN THERE COULD BE LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS. IT'S ALSO THE ONLY COMMITTEE THAT HAS SUBPOENA POWER. THAT SUBPOENA POWER IS USUALLY UNDER THE CONTEXT OF AN INVESTIGATION, OF WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE A RESOLUTION TO BEGIN. SO TO BE SUPER CLEAR ABOUT THE PROCESS, IF YOU WANT TO INITIATE AN INVESTIGATION, YOU WANT TO CREATE A RESOLUTION FIRST. YOU CAN JUST PASS IT OUT OF THIS COMMITTEE AND THE INVESTIGATION BEGINS OR IT GOES TO THE FULL COUNCIL. EITHER WAY, THE INVESTIGATION WOULD BEGIN. AND THEN LAST THING I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT, OH, AND RELATED TO THAT INVESTIGATIVE PROCESS AND SWEARING IN, THERE HAS BEEN PRECEDENT OF US HAVING JOINT MEETINGS WITH OTHER COMMITTEES, AND I'LL PICK ON PUBLIC SAFETY.

WE'VE DONE A FEW JOINT MEETINGS WITH THEM. IF WE WANTED TO INVESTIGATE OR QUESTION PEOPLE RELATED TO THAT TOPIC, BUT ALSO OF THE POWERS THAT THIS COMMITTEE HAS WHILE DOING IT. SO IF YOU EVER WANT TO DO A JOINT MEETING THAT'S ON THE TABLE, AND THEN I DO WANT TO BE SOMEWHAT CLEAR, MAYBE THIS IS MORE FOR MISS JACKSON THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE'S AN AD HOC MEET, AN AD HOC COMMITTEE LOOKING AT THE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS. THAT GROUP IS REALLY INTENDING TO EXAMINE THE GLOBAL STRUCTURE OF THE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS ON IMPROVING THE EFFICIENCY BEHIND IT. WE ARE STILL GOING TO BE DOING ALL OF THE APPOINTMENTS, THOUGH, SO WE'RE NOT I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR WHAT I THINK. I DON'T THINK I'M OVERSTEPPING THE MARK ON INTERPRETING PRESIDENT ACKERSON'S INTENT ON THAT, BUT THAT'S SORT OF AND MAYBE, TAMMY, YOU CAN JUST CLARIFY IF I'M WRONG, BUT, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT IT MORE GLOBALLY. WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE EXECUTING THE DAY TO DAY THROUGH THE REST OF THE YEAR UNTIL THEY MAKE RECOMMENDED CHANGES, AND THEN WE'LL SEE HOW THOSE COME OUT. BUT JUST WANTED TO BRIEF EVERYBODY ON THOSE QUICK TOPICS AS WELL AS TO THE PUBLIC. AND I JUST WANT TO MENTION WHEN HE REFERENCED LOUISVILLE METRO HOUSING AUTHORITY HAS BEEN A QUASI GOVERNMENT. THESE ARE ENTITIES THAT SERVE THE PUBLIC, TALK METROPOLITAN SEWER DISTRICT. THE WATER COMPANY.

YEAH, THESE ARE WHAT WE CONSIDER QUASI GOVERNMENT AGENCIES. SO OUR DOLLARS DON'T FUND THEM, BUT

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OKAY. SO AGAIN IF Y'ALL HAVE ANYTHING YOU WANT TO ADD, ANYTHING YOU WANT TO SAY. OF COURSE YOU DO. OKAY. THANK YOU. CHAIR. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WANT TO JUST ECHO OFF OF IS WHAT COUNCILMAN ANTHONY STATED ABOUT THE AD HOC COMMITTEE. YES, YOU ARE CORRECT IN STATING THAT PRESIDENT ACKERSON IS GOING TO BE HAVING THAT COMMITTEE TO PRIMARILY LOOK AT THE BOARD DESIGN STRUCTURE AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PUTTING APPLICATIONS FOR THAT BOARD JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT IT'S EQUITABLE. JUST SO WHEN WE LOOK AT IT, YOU KNOW, JUST ANOTHER SET OF EYES, ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS, BUT IT'S ALSO A HUGE THING. FIRST, I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO MY COLLEAGUE, COUNCILMAN PURVIS, FOR DOING THIS. THIS IS OUTSIDE OF THE BOX, AND THAT IS AWESOME TO BE ABLE TO MAKE, YOU KNOW, THIS COMMITTEE, THE FIRST COMMITTEE, JUST TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE COMMITTEE, WHAT IT'S SET UP AS, WHAT IT'S SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE, THINGS LIKE THAT. BUT I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT COMING INTO METRO COUNCIL, IT IT IS SCARY. OKAY? WE CAN ACT LIKE IT'S NOT. BUT WHEN YOU'RE REALISTIC AND AUTHENTIC, IT'S LIFE. IT'S WHAT IT IS. YOU'RE HERE. SO NO QUESTION IS EVER A DUMB QUESTION. DON'T EVER FEEL LIKE THAT. YOU CAN'T ASK, OH GOD, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T NEVER WANT TO BE MADE TO FEEL LIKE THAT. YOUR ANSWER DOESN'T MATTER. OR THAT YOUR ANSWER MAY NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. ALL 26 COUNCIL MEMBERS BRING SOMETHING VERY UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT, AND ALL 26 COUNCIL MEMBERS ARE FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND DIFFERENT CULTURES, SO THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS LOOKING AT THINGS IN A DIFFERENT SET OF LENSES. LIKE YOU MAY BE. SO I WOULD SAY DEFINITELY ASK QUESTIONS, BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T ASK THOSE QUESTIONS, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T HELP YOU FIND THE ANSWERS OR YOU CAN'T GET DIFFERENT OPINIONS.

DIFFERENT OPINIONS ARE GOOD, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE ALWAYS AGREEING WITH SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, TO ME, SOMEBODY YOU KNOW, BEING FAKE, I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, YOU KNOW? BUT WHEN YOU CAN SPEAK UP AND SAY, I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT OR I'M LOOKING AT IT LIKE THIS, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES YOU CAN YOUR COLLEAGUE MAY, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY GO HOME AND THINK, WELL, DANG, SHE WAS RIGHT ABOUT THAT. OR THEY MAY DO SOME INVESTIGATING AND COME BACK AND SAY, SO IT'S JUST LOOKING AT THINGS BECAUSE WE ALL REPRESENT DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES. AND IF I'M NOT WORKING IN YOUR COMMUNITY, THEN I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU SERVE AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE CHALLENGES THAT YOU ALL MAY HAVE. SO MY OFFICE, AS WELL AS I'M SURE EVERY OTHER OFFICE IS HERE TO HELP YOU NAVIGATE THROUGH THAT PROCESS, IRREGARDLESS IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN. MY OFFICE IS ALWAYS OPEN, OKAY, FOR TO HELP WITH THAT. AND AGAIN, I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO THE CHAIR AND THE CULTURE FOR OPENING THIS UP. I THINK THAT THERE IS SOME THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNIQUE. AND HONESTLY, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THE OTHER COMMITTEES WOULD DO THAT AS WELL. THANK YOU. I'M GOOD. I CAN OFFER CONTEXT, BUT OTHER THAN THAT NO I'M FINE. WE HAVEN'T THE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS THAT COUNCILMAN ANTHONY MENTIONED EARLIER, THE AD HOC COMMITTEE, FOR THOSE OF US WHO'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, WHEN WE FIRST FORMED, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE DID IS LOOKED AT THOSE BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS AND TRIED TO DECIDE WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO WITH THEM, AND WE DECIDED THAT IF IT WAS A COMMITTEE THAT ESTABLISHED POLICY OR THAT GENERATED REVENUE OR SPENT REVENUE, THAT THOSE WOULD BE APPROVED BY THE COUNCIL AND EVERY OTHER BOARD OR COMMISSION WE LEFT, YOU KNOW, UP TO THE MAYOR'S OFFICE, I THINK IT'S 20 YEARS IN. IT'S TIME NOW TO GO

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BECAUSE COMING IN NUDE IS A LOT TO TAKE IN. I APPRECIATE IT. I WISH WE HAD MAYBE IS THERE LIKE A DEFINITION OF EACH OF THESE COMMITTEES THAT KIND OF GIVE US AN OVERSIGHT OF WHAT THEY ALL INVOLVE? MAYBE THIS HAS BEEN KIND OF HELPFUL BECAUSE GOING IN BLINDLY ON SOME OF THEM, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. SO I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU WE APPRECIATE IT. EVERY COMMITTEE HAS. THAT KIND OF. THANK YOU. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I'D DO WITHOUT HIM. ANYWAY, THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING COMMITTEES BESIDES BUDGET, AND THERE ARE TIMES WHEN MAYBE WE HAVE TO LOOK AT SOME THINGS GOING ON. ONE OF THE QUASI GOVERNMENT AGENCIES, OR EVEN ONE OF THE INTERNAL AGENCIES IS NOT. SOMETIMES IT CAN BE VERY STRESSFUL. IT'S NOT ALWAYS FUN.

SOMETIMES BECAUSE YOU YOU HAVE TO YOU HAVE TO REVIEW THE INFORMATION THAT'S BEEN BROUGHT TO YOU. YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE, YOU KNOW, THESE PEOPLE ARE PERFORMING PROPERLY OR IMPROPERLY. YOU HAVE TO IDENTIFY HONESTLY WHERE SOME OF THE DISPARITIES LIE. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO? WHAT ARE YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS? SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE BOARD. AND IN SOME INSTANCES, YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN TIMES WHERE WE WONDER, IS THE BOARD RUNNING THE ENTITY OR IS THE CITY OR RUNNING THE BOARD? WE'VE SEEN THAT BEFORE. AND THAT'S THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS. AND SO YOU WILL LEARN A LOT THEN ON THIS COMMITTEE. LIKE I SAID, IT'S VERY CHALLENGING. THERE ARE TIMES WHEN PEOPLE MAY CALL YOU, HEY, I WORK AT SUCH AND SUCH. I JUST AN EXAMPLE, METRO TV, I WORK FOR SANITATION AND I'M NOT GETTING PAID ALL MY HOURS AND EVERYBODY ELSE IS COMPLAINING. THEN YOU KNOW YOU WOULD COME TO A COUNCILMAN PIAGENTINI AND MYSELF AND SAY, HEY, I'M HEARING THIS, YOU KNOW, CAN WE MEET WITH THE DIRECTOR? CAN WE CALL THEM IN AND SEE WHAT'S GOING ON? THESE ARE EXAMPLES OF WHAT WE DO. OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS.

WE'VE HAD SOME SOME ISSUES WITH TRANSIT AUTHORITY OF RIVER CITY. ONE IN PARTICULAR. THE ELDERLY WERE HAVING A HARD TIME. THE DISABLED AND ELDERLY WERE HAVING A HARD TIME, WITH ONE OF THE SUBCONTRACTORS BEING TRANSPORTED TO CERTAIN PLACES. SO WE HAD TO, YOU KNOW, INVESTIGATE THESE THINGS. WE STILL HAVE SOME OPEN ISSUES WITH THEM. WE STILL HAVE SOME THINGS THAT WE SHOULD PROBABLY STILL HAVE SOME ANSWERS TO, BUT THERE'S BEEN SOME CHANGES WITH TALK WITH THEIR ADMINISTRATION. SO SOMETHING I PROBABLY NEED TO REVISIT, WE NEED TO REVISIT. I FEEL LIKE FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND FOR SAKE AND FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR EMPLOYEES THAT ARE STILL CONCERNED ABOUT ARE THEY GOING TO BE LAID OFF OR WHAT HAVE YOU. THESE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE PROBABLY WE PROBABLY NEED TO LOOK AT AGAIN. SO WE. YES, SIR. OKAY. THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIR. THE WHAT'S THAT I KNOW. SO JUST FOR ADDITIONAL CONTEXT, THE REMEMBER WHAT I SAID EARLIER ABOUT THE

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TYPICALL YOU WORK WITH THE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE ON DRAFTING THAT RESOLUTION, BUT SOMETIMES, AS A MATTER OF FACT, IN MULTIPLE TIMES. IN MY CASE, IT HAD TO BE. THE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WAS CONFLICTED BECAUSE THEY BOTH WORK FOR US AND METRO AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE. SO WE HAD TO. THE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE HAS THIRD PARTIES, ATTORNEYS THAT WILL THEN BECOME OUR ATTORNEY FOR THAT CASE. RIGHT. THE VERBIAGE YOU PUT IN THERE IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THAT DICTATES THE SCOPE OF WHAT YOU CAN SUBPOENA. OKAY. SO IF THE SCOPE OF THE INVESTIGATION TALKS ABOUT, HEY, I WANT TO INVESTIGATE TARK'S ACTIONS HERE, HERE AND HERE AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING RELATED TO DISABILITY SERVICES AND ALL THIS. AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU SUBPOENA SOMETHING RELATED TO THEIR MAINTENANCE. THEY CAN THEY CAN MAKE A MOTION TO SQUASH THAT IN COURT AND NOT COMPLY WITH IT, BECAUSE IT'S OUTSIDE OF THE SCOPE OF THE INVESTIGATION. ONCE THE INVESTIGATION IS CREATED, GENERALLY SPEAKING, WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS ASKED FOR THE INFORMATION FIRST AND GIVEN THE PARTY THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND VOLUNTARILY. RIGHT. AND THIS IS SOMETHING ACTUALLY, NOW, PRESIDENT ACKERSON AND I WENT BACK AND FORTH ON BECAUSE WE INITIATED SEVERAL INVESTIGATIONS BACK IN THE DAY, AND WE THOUGHT IT WAS JUST A PROFESSIONAL COURTESY TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN, TO LET THAT ORGANIZATION DEMONSTRATE COMPLIANCE AND THEIR DESIRE TO WORK WITH US. SO WE ONLY USE THE SUBPOENA POWER WHEN THEY WOULDN'T COMPLY WITH THOSE REQUESTS. AND THEN, YES, IT'S SOMETHING GENERALLY SPEAKING, WE HAVE VOTED ON. I WILL TELL YOU, THE LAW IS A BIT FUZZY ON SOME OF THAT STUFF. SO WHAT WE DID IN

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SO JUST FOR THE NEW PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, USE IT AND JUST THINK OF IT LIKE THAT. IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS TO BE USED ONLY BROUGHT OUT ON VERY, VERY. SPECIAL. I WOULDN'T SAY SPECIAL, BUT IT WOULD HAVE TO BE VERY EGREGIOUS SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES, SOMETHING THAT, LIKE COUNCILMAN PIAGENTINI SAID A MINUTE AGO, AFTER WE'VE GIVEN AN AGENCY OR SOMEBODY EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE WHATEVER INFORMATION IT IS THAT WE'VE REQUESTED. AND I REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT. AND IN THAT PARTICULAR SITUATION WE DID. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED ONLY MAYBE TWO TIMES THAT I CAN REMEMBER IN EIGHT YEARS. AND I THINK PROBABLY IN COUNCILMAN KRAMER'S SITUATION, HE'S BEEN ON THE COUNCIL SINCE ITS INCEPTION. HE CAN PROBABLY ONLY REMEMBER MAYBE 2 OR 3 TIMES AS WELL. THANK YOU. YES, MA'AM. SO I ACTUALLY HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS. BASICALLY, CAN ANYONE INITIATE AN INVESTIGATION OR AUDIT INTERNAL OR EXTERNAL? AND

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PRESIDENT SIGNED OFF ON IT. IT REALLY IS NOT A LEGISLATIVE MATTER, ALTHOUGH AT THE END OF IT, THEY WILL PRODUCE A REPORT ON THE OUTCOMES OF THE AUDIT AND THE AND THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERNAL AUDIT SENDS US PERIODICALLY MONTHLY UPDATES ON WHAT THEY'RE DOING. SO I WANT TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN INTERNAL AUDIT WHICH WE CAN MAKE REQUESTS OF THEM TO CHECK ON THINGS. AND THEN, YOU KNOW, INVESTIGATIONS WITH INVESTIGATIONS GENERALLY SPEAKING WE HAVE HIRED THIRD PARTIES TO RUN THEM. I CAN TELL YOU IT'S AGAIN, I WOULD TELL YOU, PRESIDENT ACKERSON AND I HAD THIS DEBATE BECAUSE WE INITIATED SEVERAL. IT IS VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY HARD FOR COUNCIL MEMBERS TO RUN THOSE INVESTIGATIONS BORDERING ON IMPOSSIBLE, WHERE MOST OF US HAVE OTHER JOBS. AND, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST WE'RE PART TIME LEGISLATORS. SO WE HAVE, IN ALMOST EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE HIRED A THIRD PARTY CONSULTANT. OBVIOUSLY, THAT HAS BUDGET IMPACT. SO AGAIN, WE WANT MONEY. BUT IN EACH CASE WE'VE HIRED THESE THIRD PARTY EXPERTS.

THEY'VE COME IN. AND IN SOME CASES WE BID OUT THE WORK, SOMETIMES SOLE SOURCE, BUT SOMETIMES BID IT OUT DEPENDING ON WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A COMPETITIVE MARKET FOR THAT EXPERTISE. AND THEN THEY RUN IT. REPORT TO US LIKE THE ONE I HAVE A MONTHLY UPDATE MEETING WITH THEM, WITH MHA, WITH THE CONSULTANTS, AND THEN ULTIMATELY WE USUALLY ASK FOR, AT A MINIMUM, A REPORT WHEN THEY'RE COMPLETED AND THEN SOMETIMES ASK FOR. LIKE, LIKE HALFWAY REPORT OUTS. RIGHT. IF THEY SAY THIS IS GOING TO TAKE 12 MONTHS, WE SAY, HEY, CAN WE HAVE AN INTERIM REPORT OUT AFTER SIX MONTHS JUST TO GIVE EVERYBODY A SENSE OF HOW THINGS ARE GOING AND THOSE THINGS WE WILL ACTUALLY DO IN THE COMMITTEE, IN THE PUBLIC EYE, HAVE THEM REPORT OUT, ASK QUESTIONS. RIGHT. AND THAT CAN DICTATE WHAT THEY DO IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE OF THE WORK.

BUT THAT'S GENERALLY HOW WE DO IT. AND AGAIN I WANT TO DIFFERENTIATE INTERNAL AUDIT. IF IT PARTICULARLY IF IT'S SMALLER AND IT'S SOMETHING WITHIN THEIR PURVIEW. YOU WANT TO USE THE INTERNAL AUDIT DEPARTMENT. THEY DO REPORT TO US. THEY REPORT BOTH TO US AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE SIMULTANEOUSLY. AND THEN BUT IF IT'S BROADER THAN THAT AND IT'S A FULL BLOWN INVESTIGATION, THERE'S BUDGET IMPACT. AND THOSE COSTS CAN RANGE ANYWHERE FROM, YOU KNOW, 20, $30,000 TO $100,000 FOR THE BIGGER INVESTIGATIONS. SO I MAY. I'M JUST I'M DRILLING DOWN A LITTLE BIT IS ALL I'M DOING. FIRST, THE INTERNAL AUDITOR TO COUNCILMAN HAGERTY'S POINT IS A AN INDEPENDENT ENTITY WITHIN METRO GOVERNMENT THAT REPORTS TO BOTH US AND THE MAYOR. THEY HAVE A LIST OF THINGS THAT THEY PLAN ON INVESTIGATING DURING THE YEAR. THEY SIT DOWN EVERY YEAR, THEY COMPILE A LIST. THEY'LL ASK FOR OUR ASSISTANCE, THE CHAIR AND VICE CHAIR, AND THEY'LL PUT THAT TOGETHER. IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT YOU LIKE AUDIT TO LOOK AT. TO COUNCILMAN PIAGENTINI POINT, YOU CAN CERTAINLY ASK. AND IF THEY CAN, THEY WILL WRITE, BUT THEY ARE NOT IN ANY WAY OBLIGATED TO LOOK INTO SOMETHING BECAUSE A COUNCIL MEMBER ASKED THEM TO. THEY HAVE A SCHEDULE THAT THEY'RE WORKING FROM, AND IF THEY CAN WORK IT IN, THEY WILL. IF THEY IF THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY CAN. THAT SAID, IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT THIS THAT THIS COMMITTEE AGREES THAT AUDIT NEEDS TO LOOK AT, WE CAN DO THAT IN THE FORM OF A RESOLUTION. AND AT THAT POINT IT BECOMES THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. THEN IT'S NO LONGER A REQUEST OF AN INDIVIDUAL. SO AS A MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE, YOU CAN ASK FOR THINGS. THEY CAN SAY YES. THEY CAN SAY NO. AS A COMMITTEE, IF WE SAY WE NEED YOU TO DO THIS, THAT ADDS A LITTLE BIT OF, YOU KNOW, A BIT OF AUTHORITY BEHIND IT. I WOULD I WOULD MAKE THE SAME ARGUMENT OR OFFER THE SAME CONCLUSION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, INVESTIGATION INVESTIGATIONS. I PUT THAT IN AIR QUOTES. ANY ONE OF US ON THIS COMMITTEE OR ANY OF US ON COUNCIL FOR THAT MATTER, CAN ASK QUESTIONS OF ANY ENTITY HERE, RIGHT? ANY ENTITY WITHIN GOVERNMENT. SO CERTAINLY YOU COULD DO THAT THROUGH YOUR OFFICE BECAUSE YOU'RE ON THIS

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SO, YOU KNOW, INDIVIDUALS WITHIN WE DON'T DO INVESTIGATIONS RIGHT. WE MIGHT ASK QUESTIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WE MIGHT ENCOURAGE THE CHAIR TO HAVE SOMEBODY COME IN AND SPEAK ABOUT SOMETHING. IT'S THE IT'S THE PURVIEW OF THE CHAIR TO DECIDE WHERE WE'RE GOING TO GO WITH THAT. AND IF IT'S GOING TO RISE TO THE LEVEL OF INVESTIGATION, THAT'S A MUCH MORE SERIOUS UNDERTAKING. AND AGAIN, TO COUNCILMAN PACINI'S POINT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN NAME INVESTIGATIONS THAT WE'VE DONE, BUT BUT WE CAN NAME THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE THAT KIND OF FEW. RIGHT? IT'S NOT WE WON'T DO 12 INVESTIGATIONS THIS YEAR. WE JUST WON'T DO THAT. WE MIGHT HAVE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN AND ASK A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT QUESTIONS, BUT THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THAT THAT WOULD RISE TO THE LEVEL OF AN INVESTIGATION IS PRETTY SLIM. SO JUST TO PUT IT IN A CONTEXT. SO ONCE A DECISION IS MADE HERE, WHERE DOES IT GO FROM THERE? I'M, I'M IF YOU'RE ASKING LIKE ONCE. SO LET'S GO THROUGH THE FORMAL PROCESS. RIGHT. WE'VE HAD AN INVESTIGATION. WE'VE BROUGHT FOLKS IN. WE'VE DONE THE FULL SCOPE AGAIN TO COUNCILMAN MARTINI'S POINT THERE, THERE MAY BE INCLUDED IN THE CONCLUSIONS FROM THE INVESTIGATION. THERE MAY BE ACTION ITEMS THAT ARE REQUIRED. AND IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THOSE ACTION ITEMS ARE REQUIRED AND WHERE WE THEN DESIGNATE THOSE TO GO IF IT HAS BUDGET IMPLICATIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, WE MAY HAVE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS TO THE BUDGET COMMITTEE. IF IT'S IF IT HAS TO DO WITH PUBLIC SAFETY, WE MAY HAVE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS TO THE PUBLIC SAFETY COMMITTEE. OR WE COULD HAVE REPORTING REQUIREMENTS BACK TO HERE. BUT ULTIMATELY, AT THE END OF THAT INVESTIGATION, THERE'S USUALLY SOMETHING THAT SAYS THESE ARE THE CONCLUSIONS WE'VE DRAWN. THESE ARE THE KINDS OF CHANGES, IF YOU WILL, THAT WE THAT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, MANDATING OR REQUESTING. AND THEN THESE ARE THE REPORTING PROCEDURES. SO IF THOSE AREN'T FOLLOWED, WHAT HAPPENS IF WE MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS. AND THIS IS WHAT WE'VE CONCLUDED. BUT WHO FOLLOWS TO MAKE SURE THEY DO WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT THAT'S THE ACCOUNTABILITY ARM OF THIS COMMITTEE. YOU KNOW, WE'VE NOT HAD THAT WOULD BE THE EXCEPTION. RIGHT. THAT'S NOT THE WAY NORMALLY. BUT IF WE RUN INTO A SITUATION LIKE THAT, YOU COULD CONCEIVABLY END UP WITH AN ORDINANCE, AT WHICH POINT NOW IT'S THE LAW. IF I COULD, MADAM CHAIR, I'LL GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE AND MAKE THE MISTAKE THAT THIS DOES HAPPEN. I MEAN, I'LL GIVE YOU A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF WHERE THIS HAS HAPPENED, WHERE THE RECOMMENDATIONS NOT ONLY DID THE MAYOR NOT ACTION IT, BUT IT'S NOT EVEN THERE'S NOT EVEN A CONSENSUS ON COUNCIL WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD DO IT. AND THAT IS THE WITH THE CORRECTIONS INVESTIGATION, ONE OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS COMING OUT OF IT IS, WAS TO BUILD A NEW CORRECTIONS FACILITY. THERE'S NOT EVEN CONSENSUS ON COUNCIL WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD BUILD A NEW CORRECTIONS FACILITY. SO THE MAYOR HAS NOT TAKEN ANY ACTION ON THAT. BUT FRANKLY, WE HAVE NOT GIVEN HIM THE BUDGET OR DIRECTION TO DO THAT IN THE BUDGET PROCESS. SO, YEAH, I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK EVERY RECOMMENDATION THAT COMES OUT OF IT IS ADOPTED, RIGHT? THAT PERSON MAKES THE RECOMMENDATIONS IN THEIR REPORT. IN SOME CASES, THE COUNCIL MAY NOT EVEN AGREE WITH IT AND SAY, WELL, OKAY, THAT'S A GREAT RECOMMENDATION, BUT IT'S GIVEN ALL OTHER PRIORITIES. WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW. OR AND THERE'S BEEN OTHER CASES WHERE THE WE HAVE INSISTED ON IT AND THE MAYOR'S OFFICE DISAGREES. AND YOU JUST HAVE TO MUDDLE THROUGH. YOU KNOW, THAT PROCESS.

I, YOU KNOW, EITHER THROUGH OVERSIGHT AND OTHER THINGS. BUT I MEAN, THAT'S THE BEAUTIFUL PART OF DIVIDED GOVERNMENT WHERE, YOU KNOW, HE'S GOT HIS, YOU KNOW, OUR CURRENT MAYOR, HE'S GOT HIS RESPONSIBILITIES AND HE AND HIS BELIEFS, AND HE EXECUTES AS HE BELIEVES THE PUBLIC WANTS HIM TO. AND, YOU KNOW, WE WILL. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOME MECHANISMS OF OVERSIGHT AND CHECKS AND BALANCES. BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, ONE OF THE THINGS I REMIND CONSTITUENTS OF MINE FREQUENTLY IS WE CAN INFLUENCE, WE CAN BUDGET FOR THINGS OR NOT BUDGET FOR THINGS, BUT THE ACTUAL EXECUTION OF THAT BUDGET IS TOTALLY WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE MAYOR. SO THAT IS A FUNKY PLACE. I'LL GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE. AND THAT'S THE KING LOUIE STATUE WE HAVE NOW THREE DIFFERENT TIMES VOTED ONE TIME, 23 TO 3, AND TWO TIMES

[00:50:07]

THERE. THANK YOU, MADAM CHAIRMAN. I HAVE SERVED ON GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OR GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT I THINK A COUPLE OF YEARS, AND I'VE ALWAYS LOOKED AT THIS COMMITTEE AS THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD COMMITTEE, AND THAT IS LIKE THE BUCK STOPS HERE. AND SO WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE OUR CONSTITUENCY BY BRINGING IN CERTAIN ELEMENTS OF GOVERNMENT THAT THEY MAY NOT BE AWARE OF. WE CAN EDUCATE THEM ON OUR ROLE VERSUS THE MAYOR'S ROLE AND CALL IN DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS AND HAVE THEM TALK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR, BECAUSE LIKE, TO YOUR POINT, OFTENTIMES THEY LOOK AT US AS BEING THE ADMINISTRATORS WHEN WE ARE THE LEGISLATORS. AND SO I THINK GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY HAS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE OUR COMMUNITY BY BRINGING THOSE PUBLIC WORKS OR SOME OTHER TYPE OF DEPARTMENT IN TO EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING. AND IT'S OUR JOB TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT THEY'RE WHAT THEY SAY THEY'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING. AND IF THEY'RE NOT, JUST ASK THE QUESTIONS AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. THAT'S WHAT OVERSIGHT IS TO ME. AND, YOU KNOW, I WANT TO SAY THIS REAL QUICK. I JUST HAD A THOUGHT THAT, LIKE MY COLLEAGUES ARE SAYING, THE MONEY THAT HAS BEEN BUDGETED FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS FOR KING LOUIS, THERE ARE OFTEN TIMES THAT THE COUNCIL WILL BUDGET LIKE PUBLIC WORKS AND FIRE DEPARTMENT. YOU KNOW YOUR BUDGET FOR CERTAIN THINGS, BUT YOU DON'T SEE THESE THINGS COME TO FRUITION. AND THEN YOUR CONSTITUENTS ARE SCREAMING AT YOU, WELL, YOU ALL ARE SUPPOSED TO DO THIS. YOU YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO CLEAN UP THE ALLEYS, WHAT HAVE YOU. WE'RE LIKE, WELL, YEAH, WE DID BUDGET FOR THESE PROJECTS, BUT IT'S NOT HAPPENING. AND SO I DO THINK THAT IT IS TIME THAT WE START BRINGING IN THESE INTERNAL AGENCIES AND ASKING THEM, HEY, WHAT'S GOING ON? WHY ISN'T THIS HAPPENING? THAT, THAT THAT'S A REAL GOOD POINT THAT YOU GUYS HAVE MADE. SO THANK YOU ALL FOR SAYING THAT BECAUSE WE DO WE OWE AN EXPLANATION TO OUR CONSTITUENTS. AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THE HEAT ALONE. SO THANK YOU. I'M SORRY, COUNCILWOMAN HOPKINS. IT'S IN THAT IN THAT PROCESS OF THE OF THE SNOW AND EVERYTHING, WE DID FIND OUT THAT THE ROUTES, THE ROUTES HAVE NOT BEEN UPDATED FOR THE LAST FIVE YEARS. SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO BE LOOKING INTO, DEFINITELY TO SEE WHO WHO DOES THIS, WHO, WHO, WHO PUTS AND HOW DO YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD GET ON

[00:55:11]

MOTION TO ADJOURN. IF NO ONE HAS ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY OR DISCUSS, I WOULD SAY THIS MEETING IS

[Adjournment Note: Agendas are followed at the discretion of the Chair. While an item may be listed, it does not mean all items will be heard and/or acted upon by the Committee.]